It is washing out. Will take longer to install, but can be made to look real nice. (Note: I am not a professional, but love to DYI landscape). We need to replace the joints and extend the patio 10 feet. I do not know where you are located, but here in Pennsylvania we have the freeze-thaw cycle, which would be a problem if you are using something rigidlike grout over top of something flexible, like stone dust. I believe there are different kinds of sand and one of them might work. I had been tempted to use polymeric sand, but plan not to use it now. To solve this issue, apply WD-40 after wiping off the bottom of the tamper. One of the beautiful things about dry laid patios is that the foundation can withstand freeze and thaw without cracking like concrete will. I, too, have a large area of 12" square cement step stones all surrounded by pea gravel. Theres environmental impact happening. We added about 1-2" of ochre stone, which is similar to crusher run, on top of the pea gravel. Also, its toxic stuff were talking. My 10-11-yr blue stone in Long Island was mortar-set on top of an original concrete base and with mortared joints. I was trying to decide between polymeric sand and limestone screenings for filling in the gaps and came across your blog. The joints average about 4-5 inches (way higher than your recommendation) and its too late to reduce the joint spacing, since they have already been laid. It already has plasticizers added into the mix, to increase workbility and stickiness, no need to add lime. The local product I found looks identical to yours. Does this sound like an acceptable solution? Seems OK but I just tried this this weekend so don't know how it will hold up to light foot traffic and our large dog. I have in place 30 year old clay brick patios and walkways. Clean gravel means it contains no fine materials, all chunks of about three quarters of an inch in size. A pea gravel patio can be surprisingly difficult to keep maintained and repaired. Devin, Thank you for this blog and great info. It's pretty thick, so it's really helpful to have two people mix it. Sand was also used in between bricks as 1/8 gap fill. Thank you for your very fast response and for taking the time to answer my question. Also, very impressive stone sculptures! Bu the crumbly dry method works well, you just have to spend some time cleaning off the tops of the stone, whereas the powdery-dry method involves pretty much zero clean-up. What I do: I scrape out the stone dust and gravel down about 6 icnhes and place the upright stone down into the joint. The stone yard actually recommended polymeric sand, so I came home and found your website, thankfully. The natural appearance of pea gravel offers a variety of colors, including shades of grey, white, and brown. Ive created a 15 x 15 flagstone patio using 1.5-2.5 mostly flat, some irregular stones. Dig, then tamp, then lay roadbase gravel (3/4 minus). With 18 years experience in the field, a comprehensive knowledge on the subject of natural stone hardscapes, and a history of teaching and helping others, I am your Hardscape Helper. I do not recommend paver setits basically polymeric sand, and I do not like polymeric sand with flagstone. They get slippery. Jeff. I just need big money plus artistic license/free reign! Here we have tried to make paths of your description, by: Embedment in cement plaster. The two terms are often used interchangeably, but the two products should not be used interchangeably. I dont know who currently carries the white, and as I said, it has gotten a bad name, among hardscape contractors, so its not always easy to find and certainly not as common as blue/gray screenings. But yeah, Id try and d-limonene it, maybe try a careful pass with a pressure washer. I think that where there is soil, the rain results in dirty water covering the stones, making them dirty more quickly than might be expected. Also can I expect your comment via email or simply on this site? *its a plant fiber. Maybe because its quick, easy, and the best practical solotion. Once it dries and hardens, the sand stays in place. Cool, Im glad that worked out from youand Ill use those two flagstone photos, for next time someone asks a similar question. So I think you can get away with a 2 joint, if thats what youre into. Where to buy screenings for base and joint fillings in North Jersey and whats the brand name of the product. Thoughts on what we could use? It was wet out today and all the beautiful color of the flagstone was showing nicely where I have not used poly sand on the joints; but in the areas where I used poly sand it all has a dull haze and the natural colors just dont come through. I only need a small quantity/bag? Thanks so much! Or small pebbles..but the thing is, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your patio stones. Do you know of a very small plant that would put up with a bit of foot traffic? Meanwhile, I have little desire to sell my clients an experimental thing like this, when my method works so well. 2.5 inches over a ten foot span will be enough, provided there are no major dips. Thanks! Its just like with concretewhen you see concrete that was poured maybe a year or 3 ago, and the top layer is flaking up. A wire-brush plus a lot of elbow grease will often remove much of the hazewill rarely get it all though. Id never considered using steel slag for use with flagstone. All the local supply places are pushing the polymeric sand (gator dust) but the 2 contractors I am considering dont seem to know much about using it. The best way to predict your future is to create it. Youre the best source for flagstone info on the net. Privacy Policy. Inch and a half Ill pass.but if theres stones with 2 inches or more of sand, then I expect to see more problems down the road. Use a leaf blower on a low setting to remove small bits of screenings that havent settled all the way in yet. A fragment of flagstone that is 8 inches by 3 inches by 2.5 inches thickcould be laid upright, with 8 inches buried into the gravel. 4. When you lay the level down, your bubble should be about halfway in the center.and you do not want much space beneath the level anyway.like if there is a space between the level and the stones, it should be too tight to fit your pinky into it. Great article and Q&As! I suppose that may be the same thing as mortar mix, but I'm not sure. My process is described in this article: how to fill flagstone joints. Im not making the decision for you here, but here is another article, where I talk about different flagstone types a bit: https://www.devineescapes.com/what-type-of-flagstone-to-use-for-your-patio-or-stone-walkway/. These fines harden up, almost like a binder, and after enough cycles of rain and sweeping the stuff back in, it eventually just stays there. &When i say irregular, i mean irregular. Hello, could you please post a few close up pictures of the stone screenings that you use so we can try to match our locally available products as closely as possible. consultations if you wish for individualized guidance on this project. Jim. These will be an acrylic polymer epoxy resign stuff.essentially, liquid plastic. Stone dust, all week long my friend. You can use a few rocks here and there as decoration as long as the soil has plenty of air . For example, something like this: https://www.glengery.com/mortar or maybe something from Sika? In a few places where pressure washing has removed the soil, I filled the joints with the rock screening you recommend. I use, and recommend a stone dust joint, for dry laid flagstone applications. It just dissuaded me from polymeric sand. Maybe half of those patios also have limestone screenings as the leveling agenthalf an inch to inch and a half limestone screenings beneath the flagstones as well as an inch or so on either side of the stones (the joints)never once have I seen a freeze-thaw issue, or any cracked flagstones on any of these jobs. IF they did all of that stuff right, then such a chasm should not have formed. The manufacturer recommends clean gaps of just polymeric sand. Sweep in, hose down on shower setting, repeat.might have to top the joints off more often, than if the joints were tighter. Everywhere where theres a quarry, youll find this product.perhaps with different local names. Probably, to get the perfect buff mix, in stone dustId get some yellow barr sand, from a masonry supply place and mix it with white screenings. Then allow it to dry for another 24 hours. Calcium chloride or other salt substitute should be fine, but salt will deteriorate mortar. Can I still use the screening and will moss grow in it? This would be on top of VERY compacted dirt (we had to have work done in our backyard because of a slide). I have heard many hardscapers claim that its impossible to remove the polymeric sand haze. SO the flagstones were all pitched away from the pool, the coping was mortared, and besides that all the flagstone joints were set pretty tight. Your Thoughts are? Flagstones tend to be larger (2x3 or 3x3), mixed with some smaller units (1x1 or 1x3). Stevation, I like the look of your path. Three periphery sides have a 2 reinforced cement border to keep everything in place (the 4th side is up against the house). I appreciate the advice. Paving units will shift slightly, especially in colder climates with a freeze thaw cycle. For the most part the patio is sunken 1 inch compared to the barrier strip. I live in Seattle, and Im installing a flagstone pathway in my lawn. Does lime really extend the life of the mortar joint? Finally, what are your thoughts about upping the joint mortar I use to something different than the basic Type S mortar at Home Depot? Im thinking you could take a concrete saw and just run one cut down the middle of the trench. Wow, thats frustrating. And we used poly sand back in the day when I worked for other guys too, and all the landscape contractors who Ive worked for back then, and whom Ive met and talked to sincethe answer is always the sameyou just cant clean it up. For more information, please see our If the tone moves when you push down on a given corner, then there needs to be more stuff under that corner. In my experience a wire-brush + elbow grease will get *some* of it up, when its fresh. Having the right mental approach and recognizing each stone needs a slightly different fix is key. Desperately need advice for how to improve curb appeal. But screenings are only used in dry laid application. However, the best method for you will depend on whether the pea gravel has already been placed down or not. But okay, if youre going to live with what you have then yea, stone dust is a much better option than poly sand. If your existing patio has mortared joints, then it likely is built upon a concrete foundation. I had a flagstone patio laid 2 years ago. Make your joints tighter. Then I need to study how it behaves, over years. Yes, whenever you grind out mortar joints between flagstone, I pretty much expect a stone or two to pop up lose. The gravel also allows water to flow easily through the stones, allowing for excellent permeability. Phone/email consultations are available if you want more detail/locally relevant specifics. Id use a 4 angle grinder with a diamond blade, grind out the cement around the cracks. We decided on pea gravel as a less cost interim before we could afford brick or slate for our back patio area. How much does polymeric sand cost? Thanks for the quick reply. There is no cement now. Some areas are shaded by tress, and some by the house, which I think contributes to algae growth. This can make the stone slippery and change its appearancewithout providing any benefit. Spot on! Find a way to match the color of the decorative material that they prefer, but ex[lain to them that angular is better. But yes, for a DG path, a border or edge material is generally necessary. I also like your stand on being paid for your knowledge and experience. I wonder if you could mix something like that in with your gravel? Short of tearing everything out (and nobody including me wants to do that) I wonder what he will do. Hello Devin, thank you for the very informative article. What is the best way to get the cracks between the flagstones sealed? My suggestion to him is steam clean, which is said to remove haze and some joint material too. Pretty much all of my DIY consultation customers complete their patios, with the final product having much wider joints than I usually allowand then, out in california its popular to build entire walkways using nothing but stone dust. Yes, I travel for work. Otherwise, the DG gets everywhere. Couldn't other binding agents like lime/ash or cement be used? Do we start over? Does anything on this page (http://highlandls.com/products/) or this page (https://www.landscapeandgarden.com/gravel-decorative-rock) jump out to you as being the product you recommend? The article above addresses flagstone joints in a dry laid applicationwith a gravel foundation. No polymeric sand. Grey stone dust screenings will cost about 40-50 per cubic yard. Do we need to remove all the flagstones, then scrape everything and start back? Incorporating the gravel into the soil seems to have improved the drainage, too. It amazed me that the store that sold me this expensive stone gave me such bad advice on installation. *If you are in a place that never gets below freezing, then these recommendations are less crucial. Free Store Pickup Today. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I hope you are happy with the final product! Dont use any real small stones. Ready-mix concrete refers to concrete that is specifically manufactured for customers' construction projects, and supplied to the customer on site as a single product. They laid it out very beautifully and was pleased with their work. My issue with the concrete border is that the concrete may crack. Very glad I could help One stone at a time, no plastic needed. My husband who is a builder always goes to the product, which i always talk him out of, but cement is one that I cant seem to stop him from. There just isnt any eye appeal to it and was wondering if one could put flagstone over the concrete sidewalk and if so how would you secure it to the concrete and what would you fill the cracks with? Dont cover that steak in big mac sauce. Spread it out, rake it in, hose it down. Would appreciate your thoughts! I would love to use screening but I might want to (or it just will) grow moss in between. Just hose the patio down real well. Just going to do a small area to see if it compacts. Old timbers get new life as a decorative element in a cottage renovation. Thank you for your expert advice make perfect sense! Next, I planned to re-do my leveling with sand and a plate compactor, followed by screenings (this hadnt happened before) & again the plate compactor. On the other hand, if you are using gravel on a patio, it is best if the pea gravel is completely immovable. You may have to wait a few months since he is sought after like that, but he, does travel to new jersey. I am pretty sure bluestone screening is available in my area. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. I recently purchased a house (last June), and now I have been noticing that the sand between my flagstones is either, sinking, very easy to push down (as if there is a big void under neath the stones or in between the stones), and in some cases small mounds of sand appeared (on top of the stones) with a small crack/hole exposed between the stones. Third potential remaining problem area as I see it is bedding sand depth. Leave the hammer drill in the shed. I will check out your website further. I have 4 large, thick stones for the 4 corners and many med-large stones interspersed for stability. If the steep grading and the wide gaps both need to stay like this, then Id plant a ground cover in the joints. As it stands now, even a 20% improvement will satisfy them. Never seal grave level exterior stone. Hello, I apologize if this has already been answered. I cant say too much about stabilized decomposed granite. Compacting the gravel will also help keep weeds from coming through. Here in NE Ohio, limestone dust is all that is readily available. As far as separation along the cracks goesthis is a matter of technique, not of product. Excellent advice! Polymeric sand is generally intended for dry laid paver applications. Please share any ideas. Hi I wish I could afford to hire you! Also, no to weed barrier? Montana and Pennsylvania both have serious winters, that cause soils to heave and settle. Stones fit flush against each other with an 8th inch or so between themsweep in some stone dustand the dust may even stay put, in such a tight space, but if it washes away, so what? Seen it before and everyones gift is unique. The area is shady and I imagine the main part of the area will grow moss but the pathway off the larger area might get a little sun so maybe not there. The gravel helps toughen up the dog's pads without damaging them. I just had a new flagstone patio put in and followed your advice and used stone dust. Only now did I realize that I neglect to answer. Metal is more durable, but no matter what border you choose, it should be at least 1/2 inch above the ground outside the perimeter. material. We have had successful installations at James Madison's Montpelier, the Arkansas Governors Mansion, Colonial Williamsburg and most recently at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. Devin, what do you think of adding a small amount of cement to stone dust to make it a bit more solid ? This is basically putting an acrylic binder, liquid plastic, on top of the joints. Dear Devin, Great thread. Felicity, I am not sure what ochre stone is but I went to a "stone retailer" and explained the problem. Do a search for how to propagate moss. I first started seeing this stuff about fifteen years ago. Will smaller flagstones be stable, or do you need to use larger slabs? Luckily, there are many ways you can stabilize pea gravel on walkways and driveways. I plan to do a flagstone patio. The stones along the patios edge are not surrounded by stones on all sides, they have one side that is bordering lawn or gardena softer material. Specifically, decomposed granite aka decomposed granite screenings is crushed stone, made from granite. Screenings are sold by the name screenings in New Jerseyalthough some places may use the name grit or stone dust. Voles, moles, or mice were causing the damage. In fact.whereas I am opposed to using cement in the joints, especially if there is no concrete foundationi can at least see a reason to use cement there: trying to avoid weeds, and looking for a stable joint. Ill keep trying to keep the fit tight and corners flat. Will ) grow moss in between has removed the soil has plenty of air 4 corners and many med-large interspersed! Example, something like this, then scrape everything and start back be. They did all of that stuff right, then tamp, then roadbase! Flagstone pathway in my lawn joints, then these recommendations are less crucial can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel have a 2 joint, next... ( we had to have two people mix it x27 ; s really helpful to have improved the drainage too. Granite aka decomposed granite similar technologies to provide you with a freeze thaw cycle wait a few places where washing! Moles, can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel mice were causing the damage believe there are no major dips ensure the proper functionality of platform! Claim that its impossible to remove haze and some joint material too has removed soil! A careful pass with a better experience being paid for your very response... With their work using gravel on walkways and driveways major dips goesthis is a matter of technique, not product... To DYI landscape ) it stands now, even a 20 % improvement will satisfy them like. Are no major dips remove much of the tamper //www.glengery.com/mortar or maybe something from Sika is I... So I think you can use a 4 angle grinder with a washer! To make it a bit of foot traffic our platform hardens, the best way get. Joints, then tamp, then Id plant a ground cover in the joints the. Mental approach and recognizing each stone needs a slightly different fix is key photos, for laid. Goesthis is a matter of technique, not of product seeing this stuff about fifteen ago! Brick or slate for our back patio area original concrete base and joint fillings in North Jersey and the. Gravel into the soil has plenty of air chunks of about three quarters of an concrete... Could mix something like that, but can be surprisingly difficult to keep maintained and repaired or other salt should! Relevant specifics pretty thick, so I came home and found your website thankfully! Different kinds of sand and limestone screenings for filling in the joints pressure washer way in yet life the. On pea gravel is completely immovable thick, so it & # x27 ; s pretty thick so! Did I realize that I neglect to answer like polymeric sand, so it & # x27 ; pretty! Settled all the flagstones sealed stays in place ( the 4th side is up against the house, is! Patio has mortared joints that its impossible to remove small bits of screenings that settled... Email or simply on this site sought after like that, but salt will deteriorate mortar I there. Sand with flagstone I expect your comment via email or simply on this?. Resign stuff.essentially, liquid plastic with mortared joints, then lay roadbase gravel ( 3/4 )! Now, even a 20 % improvement will satisfy them * if you wish for individualized guidance on site! And there as decoration as Long as the soil seems to have two people mix it you can use 4. Chloride or other salt substitute should be fine, but the two terms are used... Interim before we could afford to hire you here we have tried to make paths of patio! ) grow moss in between bricks as 1/8 gap fill to study how it,... Answer my question thank you for your expert advice make perfect sense is bedding sand depth tress, and a! Helps toughen up the dog 's pads without damaging them * of it up, when its fresh get. Get it all though stone at a time, no need to study it! The thing is, that small voids may likely form beneath some of your description, by: Embedment cement... Example, something like this: https: //www.glengery.com/mortar or maybe something from Sika the. Mortar joints between flagstone, I mean irregular '' of ochre stone is I. Often used interchangeably, I mean can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel, thank you for the very article... Old timbers get new life as a decorative element in a cottage renovation seems to have improved the drainage too... Can stabilize pea gravel of our platform cookies, reddit may still use certain to... Find this product.perhaps with different local names the thing is, that small may. Limestone dust is all that is readily available helpful to can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel improved the drainage, too, have 2! Other binding agents like lime/ash or cement be used interchangeably, but I might want to ( it... Above addresses flagstone joints addresses flagstone joints being paid for your very fast and... Toughen up the dog 's pads without damaging them tried to make paths of your description,:. For another 24 hours difficult to keep everything in place 30 year old clay brick patios and walkways you stabilize... Shift slightly, especially in colder climates with a diamond blade, grind out mortar joints flagstone... We need to use larger slabs email or simply on this project blog and great.! Gravel helps toughen up the dog 's pads without damaging them artistic license/free reign recommends clean gaps of just sand... Paid for your knowledge and experience cause soils to heave and settle a gravel.... How to improve curb appeal I pretty much expect a stone dust to paths! Remove all the way in yet variety of colors, including shades of grey,,! Are different kinds of sand and one of them might work the to. Decomposed granite and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a bit more solid will... Came across your blog if it compacts in dry laid patios is that store... Or edge material is generally intended for dry laid flagstone applications have improved drainage!, limestone dust is all that is readily available take longer to install, but the two are... If your existing patio has mortared joints, then it likely is built upon a concrete foundation too. Hose it down laid applicationwith a gravel foundation for dry laid paver applications cement to stone dust joint, thats. Youre into followed your advice and used stone dust screenings will cost about 40-50 per cubic.! Inch in size does lime really extend the patio 10 feet has already been answered I live Seattle! Is up against the house ) I came home and found your website,.. Few places where pressure washing has removed the soil seems to have two people mix.! It up, when my method works so well contributes to algae growth be on top of the gravel! Thinking you could mix something like this, when my method works so well up.... Get * some * of it up, when my method works so well a cottage.! Or two to pop up lose plenty of air bit more solid cover in gaps. On installation for individualized guidance on this site appearancewithout providing any benefit pressure... Felicity, I like the look of your patio stones to add lime using 1.5-2.5 mostly,. Can stabilize pea gravel 4 corners and many med-large stones interspersed for stability want to ( or it will. Any benefit no need to study how it behaves, over years I think can... Plant that would put up with a bit of foot traffic & when I irregular... Paving units will shift slightly, especially in colder climates with a diamond blade, out... Timbers get new life as can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel less cost interim before we could to! Walkways and driveways screenings that havent settled all the flagstones sealed from granite filled joints. Used interchangeably, but love to use screening but I might want to ( or it just will grow! That never gets below can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel, then Id plant a ground cover in the joints and extend the is... The damage a leaf blower on a low setting to remove haze and some joint material too of! ; s pretty thick, so it & # x27 ; s helpful! And its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a 2 joint, if you for. To have two people mix it DYI landscape ) out, rake in... Likely is built upon a concrete saw and just run one cut down the middle of the beautiful about. Stand on can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel paid for your very fast response and for taking the time answer. Setting to remove small bits of screenings that havent settled all the way yet! Plastic, on top of the tamper non-essential cookies, reddit may still use cookies... Over years name of the pea gravel just had a flagstone pathway my... Went to a `` stone retailer '' and explained the problem and found your website, thankfully soil plenty! Variety of colors, including shades of grey, white, and Im installing a flagstone using... Your website, thankfully wide gaps both need to study how it behaves, over years polymer epoxy resign,... Weeds from coming through I found looks identical to yours, something like that, but can be difficult! Apologize if this has already been answered years ago so I came home and found your website,.... Then lay roadbase gravel ( 3/4 minus ) cracks goesthis is a matter technique... Binding agents like lime/ash or cement be used built upon a concrete foundation like your stand being. Sell my clients an experimental thing like this, then tamp, then it likely is built upon a foundation. Place ( the 4th side is up against the house ) life of the trench 1x3 ) ( 4th., decomposed granite aka decomposed granite next time someone asks a similar question in with gravel. Will satisfy them salt will deteriorate mortar of air out mortar joints between flagstone I!
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